Double Decker Trains!!

[Andy]

I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.

Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Andy.

[JohnM]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Commuter trains in Chicago have been double decker for at least 40 years.

http://www.jnthn.net/cgi-bin/photo_large.pl?id=1540

Not sure but I think some of the cross-country trains in the US are
double decker too.

(On the other hand buses are all single decker over there)

[Andy]

Post by JohnM

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Commuter trains in Chicago have been double decker for at least 40 years.
http://www.jnthn.net/cgi-bin/photo_large.pl?id=1540
Not sure but I think some of the cross-country trains in the US are
double decker too.
(On the other hand buses are all single decker over there)

That one looks 'ugly!' mind you its most probably old - this one I see on
the TV was streamline and modern looking.

Andy.

[Padraig Breathnach]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.

I wouldn't like to be on the upper deck of a train when it approaches
a bridge or a tunnel.

[Andy]

Post by Padraig Breathnach

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.

I wouldn't like to be on the upper deck of a train when it approaches
a bridge or a tunnel.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

It would be like an upper deck on a double decker bus - when I were young in
the UK I used to love to sit on the upper deck of busses and at the front if
I could get a seat there but as you are approaching bridges it can get quite
scar they always look like they just cleared the bridge they were going
under with a few inches to spare!

Andy.

[HVB]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -

Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!

Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

Post by Andy
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train

Or they could just add more carraiges to the train.

Post by Andy
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Yes, I have been on them in the Netherlands. T'was nice enough.

HVB

[Padraig Breathnach]

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -

Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!
Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

Post by Andy
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train

Or they could just add more carraiges to the train.

There's an infrastructure issue there also: the length of the train
cannot exceed the length of station platforms. That limitation was
addressed for DART services in Dublin.

[Andy]

Post by Padraig Breathnach

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -

Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!
Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

Post by Andy
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train

Or they could just add more carraiges to the train.

There's an infrastructure issue there also: the length of the train
cannot exceed the length of station platforms. That limitation was
addressed for DART services in Dublin.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

That's a good point there. So if they did have double Decker trains for
Ireland they would not have to lengthen then platform at all. Just to think
as well if they had a guard on board that guided the able bodied passengers
boarding to the upper deck first this would leave the disabled, elderly,
pregnant people free to sit downstairs.

As for bridge clearance apart from maybe tearing out existing bridges then
could excavate underneath the existing bridge and then re-lay the track? -
this would cause less disruption all round if they did that.

Andy.

[HVB]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:42:01 +0100, Padraig Breathnach

Post by Padraig Breathnach

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train

Or they could just add more carraiges to the train.

There's an infrastructure issue there also: the length of the train
cannot exceed the length of station platforms. That limitation was
addressed for DART services in Dublin.

Doesn't have to be an infrastructure issue.

This never used to be a problem... to give an example, Newbridge
station used to have very short platforms. It could only accomodate 3
carraiges at the platform. If the driver wasn't on the ball and
stopped the train a little short, sometimes it would only be 2
carraiges on the platform, resulting in much scurrying through the
train.

With modern door locking systems, only doors at the platform need be
unlocked - they do this in the UK. On some older trains they still
ask you to check that you are at a platform before opening the door.

HVB

[David Malone]

Post by HVB
This never used to be a problem... to give an example, Newbridge
station used to have very short platforms. It could only accomodate 3
carraiges at the platform. If the driver wasn't on the ball and
stopped the train a little short, sometimes it would only be 2
carraiges on the platform, resulting in much scurrying through the
train.

This also happens at Drucondra occasionally if the driver of the
Sligo train forgets that the train stops there.

David.

[Andy]

Post by David Malone

Post by HVB
This never used to be a problem... to give an example, Newbridge
station used to have very short platforms. It could only accomodate 3
carraiges at the platform. If the driver wasn't on the ball and
stopped the train a little short, sometimes it would only be 2
carraiges on the platform, resulting in much scurrying through the
train.

This also happens at Drucondra occasionally if the driver of the
Sligo train forgets that the train stops there.
David.

haha fancy the driver forgetting to stop there! :-)

I feel sorry for the people who want to get off at that stop!

Andy.

[Andy]

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -

Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!
Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

Post by Andy
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train

Or they could just add more carraiges to the train.

Post by Andy
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Yes, I have been on them in the Netherlands. T'was nice enough.
HVB

Top or bottom deck ?

[HVB]

Post by Andy

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Yes, I have been on them in the Netherlands. T'was nice enough.

Top or bottom deck ?

What do you think? Top, of course!

[Andy]

Post by HVB

Post by Andy

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Yes, I have been on them in the Netherlands. T'was nice enough.

Top or bottom deck ?

What do you think? Top, of course!

you must like it on top ;-)

[HVB]

Post by Andy

Post by HVB

Post by Andy
Top or bottom deck ?

What do you think? Top, of course!

you must like it on top ;-)

As long as it's comfortable...

[Thomas Ribbrock]

Post by HVB
Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!
Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

It doesn't quite work out that way... While you're right that a lot was
destroyed, there are still *plenty* of pre-war bridges and especially
tunnels in both Germany and the Netherlands where double decker trains are
used. If you take a look at pictures like e.g.
Loading Image... these trains are
not *that* high. Someone has mentioned before that the lower deck is
actually lower than normal, making it possible to maintain a reasonable
height.

BTW: I actually prefer the lower deck - higher ceiling... ;-)

Cheerio,

Thomas

[Andy]

Post by Thomas Ribbrock

Post by HVB
Our railway infrastructure is getting on for 200 years old and they
never thought of double-deck trains back - things like bridge
clearance would be a big issue!
Infrastructure in central Europe was largely destroyed during the war
and so was rebuilt with more modern thinking.

It doesn't quite work out that way... While you're right that a lot was
destroyed, there are still *plenty* of pre-war bridges and especially
tunnels in both Germany and the Netherlands where double decker trains are
used. If you take a look at pictures like e.g.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/car/DD-AR/NS0168.jpg these trains are
not *that* high. Someone has mentioned before that the lower deck is
actually lower than normal, making it possible to maintain a reasonable
height.
BTW: I actually prefer the lower deck - higher ceiling... ;-)
Cheerio,
Thomas

Yes, there is not too much difference at all in height in that photo.

Andy.

[Des (drop after des to reply)]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

~Good idea. A whole upper deck that can be occupied by skangers whilst
people downstairs stand near the doors so that they can be ready to jump
off when they arrive at their stop in 20 minutes time. Or at least
that's how it works on the buses.

Practically speaking the Irish loading gauge is the same as the English
loading gauge (for some reason) which is smaller than the UIC (European)
loading gauge which effectively means we have to have smaller stock.

[Andy]

Post by Des (drop after des to reply)

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

~Good idea. A whole upper deck that can be occupied by skangers whilst
people downstairs stand near the doors so that they can be ready to jump
off when they arrive at their stop in 20 minutes time. Or at least
that's how it works on the buses.
Practically speaking the Irish loading gauge is the same as the English
loading gauge (for some reason) which is smaller than the UIC (European)
loading gauge which effectively means we have to have smaller stock.

skangers? - I am going to have to go off and search what a skanger is
now....

[HVB]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:17:40 +0100, "Des (drop after des to reply)"

Post by Des (drop after des to reply)
Practically speaking the Irish loading gauge is the same as the English
loading gauge (for some reason) which is smaller than the UIC (European)
loading gauge which effectively means we have to have smaller stock.

I'm curious... "practically speaking"? Has something changed?

Irish loading gauge is (was?) wider than the UK. The old Dutch vans
were a great visual example of the difference in gauge, being usually
paired up with UK-spec Cravens. Long gone now, of course.

See: http://metrovicksrailwayphotos.fotopic.net/p24985527.html

I have a feeling that the original GEC DART units are built to Irish
loading gauge, BICBW.

HVB

[Andrew McCarthy]

Post by HVB
Irish loading gauge is (was?) wider than the UK. The old Dutch vans
were a great visual example of the difference in gauge, being usually
paired up with UK-spec Cravens. Long gone now, of course.

I think you might be confusing loading gauge (the physical volume
through which carriages fit) with track gauge (distance between the
rails).

Andrew

[HVB]

Post by Andrew McCarthy

Post by HVB
Irish loading gauge is (was?) wider than the UK. The old Dutch vans
were a great visual example of the difference in gauge, being usually
paired up with UK-spec Cravens. Long gone now, of course.

I think you might be confusing loading gauge (the physical volume
through which carriages fit) with track gauge (distance between the
rails).

No, I'm not.

Track gauge and loading gauge are both wider in Ireland than GB - the
picture I referred to in the post you quoted illustrated this
difference in loading gauge.

Track Gauge = 5' 3" in Ireland as against 4' 8.5" for GB
Loading Gauge = 10' 2" in Ireland against 9' 6" for GB

HVB

[James]

Post by HVB
Track gauge and loading gauge are both wider in Ireland than GB - the
picture I referred to in the post you quoted illustrated this
difference in loading gauge.
Track Gauge = 5' 3" in Ireland as against 4' 8.5" for GB
Loading Gauge = 10' 2" in Ireland against 9' 6" for GB

That's interesting. I travel occasionally on the commuter trains in & out
of London and I've always felt that the seats seem quite small/narrow
compared to here. If the whole carriage (in GB) is 8" narrower than in
Ireland that's 2" less in width per seat (four abreast). I guess that could
explain the 'squashed' feeling?

[Andrew McCarthy]

Post by HVB
Track gauge and loading gauge are both wider in Ireland than GB - the
picture I referred to in the post you quoted illustrated this
difference in loading gauge.
Track Gauge = 5' 3" in Ireland as against 4' 8.5" for GB
Loading Gauge = 10' 2" in Ireland against 9' 6" for GB

Fair enough, sorry! I had always thought the loading gauge was the same.
I'm surprised it isn't. I had noticed the different sizes in Europe,
though. The only place I noticed smaller carriages in the UK is the tube
in London :)

Andrew

[dino]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Travelled on one in Bavaria a few years back and it was a fantastic
journey.....more due to the scenery than the train though!

We also travelled in one of the cattle-truck style ones which reminded
me of the kind of journeys Michael Palin has done, sitting on the floor
between carriages with lots of migrant workers with young children. That
was very cool too for lots of different reasons. All that was missing
that time were a few chickens and a goat :)

[Andy]

Post by dino

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?

Travelled on one in Bavaria a few years back and it was a fantastic
journey.....more due to the scenery than the train though!
We also travelled in one of the cattle-truck style ones which reminded
me of the kind of journeys Michael Palin has done, sitting on the floor
between carriages with lots of migrant workers with young children. That
was very cool too for lots of different reasons. All that was missing
that time were a few chickens and a goat :)

it must be lovely to do all that travelling - I wish my family and I could
see a bit more of the rest of the world one day I would love my kids to see
other countries and not end up like me who has only ever been to Spain when
I was younger for one week! .... and it rained nearly every day!

The nearest we get to look at the rest of the world is to watch stuff on the
discovery channel on TV sometimes :-)

Andy.

[dino]

Post by Andy
it must be lovely to do all that travelling - I wish my family and I could
see a bit more of the rest of the world one day I would love my kids to see
other countries and not end up like me who has only ever been to Spain when
I was younger for one week! .... and it rained nearly every day!
The nearest we get to look at the rest of the world is to watch stuff on the
discovery channel on TV sometimes :-)

I was lucky enough to have a sister working in Germany for a year.
Myself and another sister went to visit her. We got this ticket that
allowed unlimited travel anywhere in Germany on any train as long as we
didn't go 1st Class so off we went to Bavaria. It was a great (but very
long) day and although I've forgotton a lot of it this conversation has
brought some of it back on an otherwise dreary Saturday afternoon at work :)

Now I'm a married man with 1.5 kids it'll be a while before I get a
chance to do anything like that again.

[Brian Tannam]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

Yep, I travelled on one that was a commuter between Charleroi and
Brussels....smooth as silk too.

JB

[LiamK]

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

I was on them in Germany years ago - IIRC the lower deck is actually a
little below platform level so you have to go down a few steps to get
into it (ie the platform door is on a level between the 2 decks)

[Andy]

Post by LiamK

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

I was on them in Germany years ago - IIRC the lower deck is actually a
little below platform level so you have to go down a few steps to get
into it (ie the platform door is on a level between the 2 decks)

That's a good way of doing it - would make the train not so tall as well.

Andy.

[Phil O'Sofa]

Post by LiamK

Post by Andy
I have just been watching something on TV I think it is in Germany or
Holland and they had Double Decker trains and I thought what a brilliant
Idea and why on earth don't countries such as the UK & Ireland have them? -
that would stop a lot of people moaning when they cannot get a seat on their
train journey and would be able to transport more people in the same space
just single train does. They do it with busses so I reckon it makes just as
much sense to do it with trains as well.
Has anyone been on one at all in another country ?
Andy.

I was on them in Germany years ago - IIRC the lower deck is actually a
little below platform level so you have to go down a few steps to get
into it (ie the platform door is on a level between the 2 decks)

Same as in Australia in the early 1990s. You go up or down three or
four steps to reach either deck. Air conditioned and fantastic in the
hotter weather in Sydney in the summer. Even in rush hour they were
not crammed sardine style as in Lodnod.

It was not really user friendly for wheelchairs IIRC but very little
public transport is.

Whenever this topic has come up ever since being back in Lodnod I have
asked the transport infrastructure cognoscenti why no air conditioned
double deckers? It is only in the last couple of years that someone
has pointed out the "obvious" problem of the tunnels being too small.
There is not a lot in it, but a few inches safety clearance is not
enough.

Cost of rebuilding tunnels to make them wider and either lift bridges
or lower the track under bridges plus all the trouble of re routing
whilst works were going on makes it economically non viable to buy
them even if they were being given away for free!