Why Baile Atha Cliath?

[Gerry Doyle]

Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?

As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island knew
it as that in their own forms of it too.

The Ford of the Hurdles, on the other hand, was situated somewhere way out
of town to the west, out by the wilds of Islandbridge, and wouldn't even
have been a part of Dublin until comparatively recently, so what gives here?
Why rename the city after a bit of a suburb?

If indeed there was a common usage of Baile Atha Cliath, then I'm certain
that it would have been well Anglicised over the years into something
dreadful like Blockley or Ballyacklee, but this doesn't seem to have
happened.

So, I'm wondering how long has BAC been the 'official' Irish name for
Dublin, and who's idea was it, as it seems to have sprung fully formed from
somewhere unknown?

No doubt there's an obvious answer to this, so does anyone know?

Istanbul not Constantinople?

G

[Féachadóir]

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island knew
it as that in their own forms of it too.

Átha Cliath was a church settlement. It was what the Irish called the
place. The Vikings built a separate settlement up the road, at a
place called Dubh Linn. As the settlements grew, Átha Cliath and Dubh
Linn merged into one large town, and eventually a city. As a result of
the different origin points for the Irish and Vikings, the place had
different names in the two languages.

Post by Gerry Doyle
The Ford of the Hurdles, on the other hand, was situated somewhere way out
of town to the west, out by the wilds of Islandbridge, and wouldn't even
have been a part of Dublin until comparatively recently, so what gives here?
Why rename the city after a bit of a suburb?

It wasn't renamed. It was always Átha Cliath.

Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

Post by Gerry Doyle
If indeed there was a common usage of Baile Atha Cliath, then I'm certain
that it would have been well Anglicised over the years into something
dreadful like Blockley or Ballyacklee, but this doesn't seem to have
happened.

My money would have been on Blacklee.

Post by Gerry Doyle
So, I'm wondering how long has BAC been the 'official' Irish name for
Dublin, and who's idea was it, as it seems to have sprung fully formed from
somewhere unknown?

It has been called Atha Cliath in Irish for a while. For instance:
"Sloghud la Brian m. Cenneitigh m. Lorcain, la righ n-Erenn, & la Mael
Sechlainn m. Domnaill, la righ Temhrach co h-Ath Cliath.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's from the four Masters, written in the early 1600s from earlier
sources. [Brian son of Ceinnétig son of Lorcán, king of Ireland, and
Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair, led an army to Áth
Cliath.]

Post by Gerry Doyle
No doubt there's an obvious answer to this, so does anyone know?

Language apartheid. :)

Post by Gerry Doyle
Istanbul not Constantinople?

In that case the city was deliberately renamed. The Irish equivalents
are places like Kingstown & Queenstown

[GoldenArse]

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island knew
it as that in their own forms of it too.

Átha Cliath was a church settlement. It was what the Irish called the
place. The Vikings built a separate settlement up the road, at a
place called Dubh Linn. As the settlements grew, Átha Cliath and Dubh
Linn merged into one large town, and eventually a city. As a result of
the different origin points for the Irish and Vikings, the place had
different names in the two languages.

Thanks. I didn't know that.

GA

[An Mac Tíre Bán]

Post by GoldenArse

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island

knew

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
it as that in their own forms of it too.

Átha Cliath was a church settlement. It was what the Irish called the
place. The Vikings built a separate settlement up the road, at a
place called Dubh Linn. As the settlements grew, Átha Cliath and Dubh
Linn merged into one large town, and eventually a city. As a result of
the different origin points for the Irish and Vikings, the place had
different names in the two languages.

Thanks. I didn't know that.
GA

me neither... Every now and again you come across a gem in with all the
shite...

Ray

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A little rebellion now and then.... is a medicine necessary for the
sound health of government" - Thomas Jefferson, 1787
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email : rayh(-remove-)@iol.ie
Forum : http://www.eirefirst.com/anyquestions/index.php
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
Blog : http://www.eirefirst.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mick Tully]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 06:47:55 GMT, "GoldenArse"

Post by GoldenArse

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island

knew

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
it as that in their own forms of it too.

Átha Cliath was a church settlement. It was what the Irish called the
place. The Vikings built a separate settlement up the road, at a
place called Dubh Linn. As the settlements grew, Átha Cliath and Dubh
Linn merged into one large town, and eventually a city. As a result of
the different origin points for the Irish and Vikings, the place had
different names in the two languages.

Thanks. I didn't know that.
GA

me neither... Every now and again you come across a gem in with all the
shite...
Ray

Indeed! Great question, most informative answer. Thanks both.

Mick.

[Trish]

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?

<snip>

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

[kateh]

"Féachadóir" wrote ...

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What a
great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over the
top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in it.....outside
the city limits? We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown.
It's a little strange.
Kate(Hi there, Trish!)H :)

[James]

Post by kateh
How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits? We have a creek that goes under Walla
Walla's downtown. It's a little strange.
Kate(Hi there, Trish!)H :)

It's more a small stream. Over the last 50 years more and more of it was
covered as it runs through the city to the Liffey so it's mostly underground
today. It's still quite visible around the KCR, Lower Kimmage Road and the
park in front of Mount Argus Church.

It runs under Dublin Castle and IIRC was used for some famous break-outs
from the cells in the castle. If an escapee got down the drains into the
river they could find their way out eventually.

And as to why a castle was built over it, well maybe on one side it brought
in fresh water and on the other it was convenient to carry effluent away :-)

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by James

Post by kateh
How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits? We have a creek that goes under Walla
Walla's downtown. It's a little strange.
Kate(Hi there, Trish!)H :)

It's more a small stream. Over the last 50 years more and more of it was
covered as it runs through the city to the Liffey so it's mostly underground
today. It's still quite visible around the KCR, Lower Kimmage Road and the
park in front of Mount Argus Church.
It runs under Dublin Castle and IIRC was used for some famous break-outs
from the cells in the castle.

Those O'Neills that were held in the Castle would have shinnied down from
the tower and found themselves on the banks of the Poddle just about at the
Ship St gate on a freezing Christmas Eve before enduring terrible hardships
in the Wicklow Mts., hardy men.

If an escapee got down the drains into the

Post by James
river they could find their way out eventually.
And as to why a castle was built over it, well maybe on one side it brought
in fresh water and on the other it was convenient to carry effluent away :-)

The Castle was built up on the hill above it, the second best place seeing
as Christchurch had the best bit of the ridge the original town was built
on.

The Lower Yard in the Castle grounds was the actual Black Pool, The Dubh
Linn, and the lane up to Ship St gate was the original course of the Poddle.
You can see it if you can prise up any of the shores along it. It flows out
then under the Olympia Theatre and you can see where it emerges in the quay
wall of the Liffey at Parliament St bridge with the grating over the opening
to stop Fenians gaining entry to the Castle.

If you look at Dame St by the Olympia you can see the road rising in either
direction showing the slopes of the ancient riverbanks, which is also why
the Lower Yard in the Castle slopes the way that it does.

Sometimes roadworks will reveal the old Poddle, it's in quite a substantial
bricklined tunnel, you could drive a car down it.

G

[James]

Post by Gerry Doyle
The Lower Yard in the Castle grounds was the actual Black Pool, The Dubh
Linn, and the lane up to Ship St gate was the original course of the Poddle.
You can see it if you can prise up any of the shores along it. It flows out
then under the Olympia Theatre and you can see where it emerges in the quay
wall of the Liffey at Parliament St bridge with the grating over the opening
to stop Fenians gaining entry to the Castle.
If you look at Dame St by the Olympia you can see the road rising in either
direction showing the slopes of the ancient riverbanks, which is also why
the Lower Yard in the Castle slopes the way that it does.
Sometimes roadworks will reveal the old Poddle, it's in quite a substantial
bricklined tunnel, you could drive a car down it.

I would imagine the tunnel is only that large in the city centre because
(flowing into the Liffey) it would also be tidal at that point. If you go
further out to around Mount Argus where you can see it disappearing under
the front gardens of the houses along Lower Kimmage Rd., it's much smaller
and you certainly wouldn't get a car in :-)

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by James

Post by Gerry Doyle
The Lower Yard in the Castle grounds was the actual Black Pool, The Dubh
Linn, and the lane up to Ship St gate was the original course of the Poddle.
You can see it if you can prise up any of the shores along it. It flows out
then under the Olympia Theatre and you can see where it emerges in the quay
wall of the Liffey at Parliament St bridge with the grating over the opening
to stop Fenians gaining entry to the Castle.
If you look at Dame St by the Olympia you can see the road rising in either
direction showing the slopes of the ancient riverbanks, which is also why
the Lower Yard in the Castle slopes the way that it does.
Sometimes roadworks will reveal the old Poddle, it's in quite a substantial
bricklined tunnel, you could drive a car down it.

I would imagine the tunnel is only that large in the city centre because
(flowing into the Liffey) it would also be tidal at that point.

Dunno, maybe there was other streams flowing into it too? I know there were
lots of mill streams along that road in the middle ages. The time I saw it
was when they dug up the junction of Dean St and Patrick St, as far as I
know it flows under the Coombe then, which is why that street has such a
meandering course, and up Cork St via Ardee St. Funny thing, but when I
lived there I had a dream of standing by the river bank of the Poddle at the
Coombe valley and looking out across the fields there. When I read a Lar
Redmond book, it seems he also had the same dream when he was a kid. Wonder
does it happen often?

G

[GoldenArse]

Post by kateh
How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What a
great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over the
top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in it.....outside
the city limits? We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown.
It's a little strange.
Kate(Hi there, Trish!)H :)

Actually it was originally called the Poodle. But then hundreds of years
later the French invented the dog. And so it was changed around 1815, the
English being enemies of the French an all.

GA

[kateh]

Post by GoldenArse
Actually it was originally called the Poodle. But then hundreds of years
later the French invented the dog. And so it was changed around 1815, the
English being enemies of the French an all.

Poodles are water dogs, so your idea may not be as silly as it seems.
KateH :)

[bro]

Post by kateh

"Féachadóir" wrote ...

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits?
We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown. It's a little
strange.

not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.

the farset still exists under bridge street and high street (bridge street
is now some distance from any noticeable bridge). in the 19th century,
ships sailed right up what is now high street to the city centre docks.
church lane and pottinger's entry led right up to the quay

in fact....

st. georges church of ireland on the corner of victoria street and high
street is actually built on the banks of the farset, and it was the location
of the first known building on the site around which the town of belfast was
built. it was called the 'chapel of the ford', and was built in 1306 as a
resting spot for travellers who had crossed the farset.

i'm just full of useful info today...


bro

[bro]

Post by bro

Post by kateh

"Féachadóir" wrote ...

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits?
We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown. It's a little
strange.

not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.
the farset still exists under bridge street and high street (bridge street
is now some distance from any noticeable bridge). in the 19th century,
ships sailed right up what is now high street to the city centre docks.
church lane and pottinger's entry led right up to the quay
in fact....
st. georges church of ireland on the corner of victoria street and high
street is actually built on the banks of the farset, and it was the
location of the first known building on the site around which the town of
belfast was built. it was called the 'chapel of the ford', and was built
in 1306 as a resting spot for travellers who had crossed the farset.
i'm just full of useful info today...

thread renamed :-)

bro

[Cat]

Post by bro

Post by bro

Post by kateh

"Féachadóir" wrote ...

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits?
We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown. It's a little
strange.

not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.
the farset still exists under bridge street and high street (bridge street
is now some distance from any noticeable bridge). in the 19th century,
ships sailed right up what is now high street to the city centre docks.
church lane and pottinger's entry led right up to the quay
in fact....
st. georges church of ireland on the corner of victoria street and high
street is actually built on the banks of the farset, and it was the
location of the first known building on the site around which the town of
belfast was built. it was called the 'chapel of the ford', and was built
in 1306 as a resting spot for travellers who had crossed the farset.
i'm just full of useful info today...

thread renamed :-)
bro

Amazing... two whole threads of *real* irish culture on SCI.





Cat(h)
The world swirls...

[bro]

Post by Cat

Post by bro

Post by bro

Post by kateh

"Féachadóir" wrote ...

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

How big is the Poddle? I mean, is it a creek or a full sized river? What
a great name BTW. :) And what possessed folks to build a castle over
the top of it? Can you see the Poddle, walk along it, fish in
it.....outside the city limits?
We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown. It's a little
strange.

not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.
the farset still exists under bridge street and high street (bridge street
is now some distance from any noticeable bridge). in the 19th century,
ships sailed right up what is now high street to the city centre docks.
church lane and pottinger's entry led right up to the quay
in fact....
st. georges church of ireland on the corner of victoria street and high
street is actually built on the banks of the farset, and it was the
location of the first known building on the site around which the town of
belfast was built. it was called the 'chapel of the ford', and was built
in 1306 as a resting spot for travellers who had crossed the farset.
i'm just full of useful info today...

thread renamed :-)
bro

Amazing... two whole threads of *real* irish culture on SCI.

it might have helped if i'd spelt the name right....

bro

[Cat]

Post by bro
it might have helped if i'd spelt the name right....
bro

Not that I would have noticed, or anything...




Cat(h)
The world swirls...

[westprog]

"Cat" <***@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
...

Post by Cat
Amazing... two whole threads of *real* irish culture on SCI.

We'll get over it.

J/

SOTW: "The Prickly Bush" - Steeleye Span

http://homepage.eircom.net/~albedo1/

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by bro
not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.

Never knew that, we were always told that Béal Feirste was the 'forested
river mouth', or 'mouth of the forest'. It does seem to make more sense as
the 'mouth of the Farset'.

G

[bro]

Post by Gerry Doyle

Post by bro
not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.

Never knew that, we were always told that Béal Feirste was the 'forested
river mouth', or 'mouth of the forest'. It does seem to make more sense as
the 'mouth of the Farset'.

well, i'm an expert in this kinda thing, y'know. blame the internet.

bro

[Féachadóir]

Post by Gerry Doyle

Post by bro
not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.

Never knew that, we were always told that Béal Feirste was the 'forested
river mouth', or 'mouth of the forest'.

Sounds like someone guessing the meaning of Feirste. The Irish for
forest is Coill.

Post by Gerry Doyle
It does seem to make more sense as
the 'mouth of the Farset'.

Farset / feirste in turn meaning 'sandbank', apparently.

[kateh]

Post by bro

Post by kateh
KateH
We have a creek that goes under Walla Walla's downtown. It's a little
strange.

not so unusual, though. belfast is named after the river farset (béal
feirste, mouth of the farset/ford/crossing or something) on which it was
built. odd, since belfast's river is now the lagan.
the farset still exists under bridge street and high street (bridge street
is now some distance from any noticeable bridge). in the 19th century,
ships sailed right up what is now high street to the city centre docks.
church lane and pottinger's entry led right up to the quay
in fact....
st. georges church of ireland on the corner of victoria street and high
street is actually built on the banks of the farset, and it was the
location of the first known building on the site around which the town of
belfast was built. it was called the 'chapel of the ford', and was built
in 1306 as a resting spot for travellers who had crossed the farset.
i'm just full of useful info today...

What's got into you! :)
Thanks much, that was interesting.
KateH

[westprog]

Post by Trish

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?

<snip>

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

AFAIK, Dubh Linn was the pool formed where the Poddle met/meets the Liffey.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.d.scott/dub2/dub05.html

I intend to refer to the place as Blackpool hereafter.

J/

SOTW: "Journey of the Sorcerer" - The Eagles

http://homepage.eircom.net/~albedo1/

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island knew
it as that in their own forms of it too.

Átha Cliath was a church settlement.

It goes back even before that, apparently it was the Liffey crossing for one
of the major roads of old Ireland, from Wicklow to Tara, Slig Cualann (?)
was it?

It was what the Irish called the

Post by Féachadóir
place.

It wasn't Dublin though.

The Vikings built a separate settlement up the road, at a

Post by Féachadóir
place called Dubh Linn. As the settlements grew, Átha Cliath and Dubh
Linn merged into one large town, and eventually a city. As a result of
the different origin points for the Irish and Vikings, the place had
different names in the two languages.

That's what I'm wondering about, until very recently, they were two very
distinct places, only in the last 100 years perhaps has Dublin been
contiguous with the area at the Ford.

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
The Ford of the Hurdles, on the other hand, was situated somewhere way out
of town to the west, out by the wilds of Islandbridge, and wouldn't even
have been a part of Dublin until comparatively recently, so what gives here?
Why rename the city after a bit of a suburb?

It wasn't renamed. It was always Átha Cliath.

Dublin and the Ford were two different places. Why was the city landed with
the name of this little spot way down the road though?

Post by Féachadóir
Dubh Linn is roughly where the Castle / Christchurch is, not that far
from Islandbridge. You'd walk there from the Castle in 15 minutes.

You might indeed, but there are many villages that are completely seperate
to each other within 15 minutes walk, even Leinster House was it was built
was considered a risk because it was so far out, so Islandbridge/Chapelizod
was way out west. Not the same place by any means.

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
If indeed there was a common usage of Baile Atha Cliath, then I'm certain
that it would have been well Anglicised over the years into something
dreadful like Blockley or Ballyacklee, but this doesn't seem to have
happened.

My money would have been on Blacklee.

Post by Gerry Doyle
So, I'm wondering how long has BAC been the 'official' Irish name for
Dublin, and who's idea was it, as it seems to have sprung fully formed from
somewhere unknown?

It has been called Atha Cliath in Irish for a while.

The Ford has, but specifically has the town of Dublin? The town of the ford
could as easily have been Chapelizod.

Post by Féachadóir
"Sloghud la Brian m. Cenneitigh m. Lorcain, la righ n-Erenn, & la Mael
Sechlainn m. Domnaill, la righ Temhrach co h-Ath Cliath.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's from the four Masters, written in the early 1600s from earlier
sources. [Brian son of Ceinnétig son of Lorcán, king of Ireland, and
Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair, led an army to Áth
Cliath.]

Does it say when this was? What came next? The thing is that anyone
leading any army along that road would have to pass over the Liffey at Ath
Cliath, but that was the ford itself, not the town which was a bit of a way
to the east, and depending on the time it happened, may not even have been
there at all yet. So leading an army to Ath Cliath does not necessarily mean
it was going to Dublin town, which would perhaps have been Baile Ath Cliath
if that's what they meant?

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
No doubt there's an obvious answer to this, so does anyone know?

Language apartheid. :)

It's just that it sounds a bit revisionist, that the capital city had to
have a Gaelic name? Can you dig up anything actually referring to the town
for me?

G

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by Gerry Doyle

Post by Féachadóir
"Sloghud la Brian m. Cenneitigh m. Lorcain, la righ n-Erenn, & la Mael
Sechlainn m. Domnaill, la righ Temhrach co h-Ath Cliath.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's from the four Masters, written in the early 1600s from earlier
sources. [Brian son of Ceinnétig son of Lorcán, king of Ireland, and
Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair, led an army to Áth
Cliath.]

Does it say when this was? What came next?

Doh! Just realised these two were Brian Boru and Malachy on one of their
several joint business trips to the big smoke, and even if it was the big
one in 1014, the battle at Clontarf was able to be fought without either
side going anywhere near Dublin itself, so it's not in any way conclusive
that this passage referred to Dublin rather than the ford where they may
have met up on their way there.

G

[Féachadóir]

Post by Gerry Doyle

Post by Féachadóir
"Sloghud la Brian m. Cenneitigh m. Lorcain, la righ n-Erenn, & la Mael
Sechlainn m. Domnaill, la righ Temhrach co h-Ath Cliath.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's from the four Masters, written in the early 1600s from earlier
sources. [Brian son of Ceinnétig son of Lorcán, king of Ireland, and
Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair, led an army to Áth
Cliath.]

Does it say when this was? What came next?

What happened next was Brian, who was known as Brian the Taxman, or
Brian Boruma, won the battle but lost his life.

The Four Masters account was written sometime in the years up to 1616.
I can have a look see if there are older references to the name about
the place.

Post by Gerry Doyle
The thing is that anyone
leading any army along that road would have to pass over the Liffey at Ath
Cliath, but that was the ford itself, not the town which was a bit of a way
to the east, and depending on the time it happened, may not even have been
there at all yet. So leading an army to Ath Cliath does not necessarily mean
it was going to Dublin town, which would perhaps have been Baile Ath Cliath
if that's what they meant?

The thing is, to the jackeen Dubh Linn and Átha Cliath might not be
the same place, but to Brian (Limerickman) or Mael Sechlainn
(Ulsterman) they were as close as made no difference. 15 minutes walk
was nothing after a couple of weeks on the war trail from the other
end of the country.

[westprog]

...

Post by Féachadóir
The thing is, to the jackeen Dubh Linn and Átha Cliath might not be
the same place, but to Brian (Limerickman) or Mael Sechlainn
(Ulsterman) they were as close as made no difference. 15 minutes walk
was nothing after a couple of weeks on the war trail from the other
end of the country.

So it was another case of ignorant foreigners imposing their mistakes on the
people who actually lived there?

J/

SOTW: "The Prickly Bush" - Steeleye Span

http://homepage.eircom.net/~albedo1/

[Féachadóir]

Post by westprog
...

Post by Féachadóir
The thing is, to the jackeen Dubh Linn and Átha Cliath might not be
the same place, but to Brian (Limerickman) or Mael Sechlainn
(Ulsterman) they were as close as made no difference. 15 minutes walk
was nothing after a couple of weeks on the war trail from the other
end of the country.

So it was another case of ignorant foreigners imposing their mistakes on the
people who actually lived there?

It's the Strother Martin syndrome. What we have here is a failure to
communicate.

[Gerry Doyle]

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle

Post by Féachadóir
"Sloghud la Brian m. Cenneitigh m. Lorcain, la righ n-Erenn, & la Mael
Sechlainn m. Domnaill, la righ Temhrach co h-Ath Cliath.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's from the four Masters, written in the early 1600s from earlier
sources. [Brian son of Ceinnétig son of Lorcán, king of Ireland, and
Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair, led an army to Áth
Cliath.]

Does it say when this was? What came next?

What happened next was Brian, who was known as Brian the Taxman, or
Brian Boruma, won the battle but lost his life.

Yes, I finally copped on to that.

Post by Féachadóir
The Four Masters account was written sometime in the years up to 1616.
I can have a look see if there are older references to the name about
the place.

Ta. You'll find references to the ford itself, it was always important
dating back to maybe all the way back, so if you can find early references
to Dublin itself referred to as BAC it would be much appreciated.

Post by Féachadóir

Post by Gerry Doyle
The thing is that anyone
leading any army along that road would have to pass over the Liffey at Ath
Cliath, but that was the ford itself, not the town which was a bit of a way
to the east, and depending on the time it happened, may not even have been
there at all yet. So leading an army to Ath Cliath does not necessarily mean
it was going to Dublin town, which would perhaps have been Baile Ath Cliath
if that's what they meant?

The thing is, to the jackeen Dubh Linn and Átha Cliath might not be
the same place, but to Brian (Limerickman) or Mael Sechlainn
(Ulsterman) they were as close as made no difference.

Dunno about that, any culchies in Dublin always seemed to know the names of
places and streets that the natives just *knew*, but maybe you're right
about the Ulstermen, as they don't seem to have changed much if they
consider Killaloe to be in Limerick...

15 minutes walk

Post by Féachadóir
was nothing after a couple of weeks on the war trail from the other
end of the country.

I'm sure any native of Killaloe knows just how a short walk and a bridge can
make all the difference between towns and counties.

G

[Michael O'Neill]

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?
As far as I can tell, the city or town has never been known as anything
other than Dublin, under various forms of Dubhlinn, Dyflin, Dublinia (?),
etc., and I can only assume that the people of the rest of the island knew
it as that in their own forms of it too.
The Ford of the Hurdles, on the other hand, was situated somewhere way out
of town to the west, out by the wilds of Islandbridge, and wouldn't even
have been a part of Dublin until comparatively recently, so what gives here?
Why rename the city after a bit of a suburb?
If indeed there was a common usage of Baile Atha Cliath, then I'm certain
that it would have been well Anglicised over the years into something
dreadful like Blockley or Ballyacklee, but this doesn't seem to have
happened.
So, I'm wondering how long has BAC been the 'official' Irish name for
Dublin, and who's idea was it, as it seems to have sprung fully formed from
somewhere unknown?
No doubt there's an obvious answer to this, so does anyone know?

Stupid civil servants trying to be clever.

We're only lucky its not names Howth.

M.

[Sidheseeker]

Post by Gerry Doyle
Here's a thing that's puzzling me - why is Baile Átha Cliath the official
Irishname for Dublin instead of say, Dubh Linn?

Just a bit of trivial stuff here.. a few years ago..
a bar owner from here went to a Steeler gane in Dublin..

upon his return.. he displayed a liscence plate above
his bar with Baile Atha Cliath on it.. when asked
the meaning of BAC.. he proudly showed his knowledge
of all things Irish gained in his ten day stay..
"It means.. Ireland forever" he told one and sll..
he got really pissed at me when I told him that
it just meant the plate was for Dublin..